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How Apple Has Changed the Bay Area and the World
Alexis Madrigal
Apr 8, 2026
Updated
Apr 9, 2026
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(Sean Gallup/Getty Images)
Airdate: Thursday, April 9 at 9 AM
Today, Apple is a $3.5 trillion company with over 150,000 employees worldwide. Fifty years ago, it was two Steves – Jobs and Wozniak – working out of a Los Altos garage. (All great Silicon Valley origin stories seem to include a garage.) Since its inception, Apple has not only introduced culture shifting technology like the Macintosh computer and iPhone, it has also influenced how we live here in the Bay Area, on the edge of the continent and a future being cast by technologists, innovators, and entrepreneurs. We’ll talk about the influence of Apple.
Guests:
Margaret O'Mara,
Scott and Dorothy Bullitt Professor of American History, University of Washington; writes and teaches about the growth of the high-tech economy, the history of American politics, and the connections between the two; author, "The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America"
Hansen Hsu,
curator, Software History Center at the Computer History Museum; former Apple employee; historian and sociologist
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This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.
Alexis Madrigal:
Welcome to
Forum
. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Apple has an incredible Silicon Valley lineage. Going back to the start, both Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were steeped—truly steeped—in the culture of technology companies that came to surround the Stanford campus. Wozniak’s father worked for Lockheed Missiles and Space, a defense contractor that was a huge employer in the proto–Silicon Valley economy. And Jobs, for his part, united the countercultural elements that contributed to the Bay Area’s cache—like the
Whole Earth Catalog
—with the corporate sensibility of companies like Hewlett-Packard. Jobs was literally a guy who cold-called Bill Hewlett and ended up working on the company’s assembly line.
Given the emerging homebrew computer and electronics ecosystem springing up in Northern California, the two Steves could not have created Apple many other places in the world. And perhaps more importantly, the two Steves—with their backgrounds, contacts, and worldviews—almost certainly could not have existed anywhere else. These were Bay Area figures creating a Bay Area company, and it has forever changed our region and the world.
Joining us to discuss, we’ve got Margaret O’Mara, a professor of American history at the University of Washington. She writes and teaches about the growth of the high-tech economy. She’s the author of the book
The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America
. Welcome, Margaret.
Margaret O’Mara:
Thanks for having me.
Alexis Madrigal:
We also have Hansen Hsu, a curator in the Software History Center at the Computer History Museum. Hsu is a historian and sociologist and curated the museum’s exhibit of rare Apple prototypes—and also, I think he would want noted, a former Apple employee. Welcome, Hansen.
Hansen Hsu:
Hi. Thanks.
Alexis Madrigal:
Great to have you. So, Margaret, what do you think? You’re a historian—do you think Apple could have been founded somewhere else in this world?
Margaret O’Mara:
It’s hard to imagine. It is a Silicon Valley company through and through. It certainly was not the only personal computer company, but it really has become the emblem of that revolution in the 1980s. And it has continued to be, as the intro outlined, a world-dominant company. So many aspects of our lives—our digitized lives—Apple has had a hand in shaping.
Alexis Madrigal:
Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I really took from your book was the way that Apple did unite the different forces circulating in the Bay Area at that time. You know, you’re homebrew, but also Lockheed, but also counterculture. Could you talk a little bit more about those strands?
Margaret O’Mara:
Yeah. You know, it’s really 1976—April 1976. “Silicon Valley” was a term of art, kind of an industry insider term, but it hadn’t appeared in
The New York Times
or
The Wall Street Journal
, and probably not the
San Francisco Chronicle
either.
At the time, it was a place that made electronics that went into other electronics. It was an enterprise business—there was no consumer-facing business. And it was a business founded on the Cold War military-industrial complex. Companies like Lockheed were, by and large, defense contractors. So it was a very different kind of culture and place.
And yet, some critical elements were already there: the entrepreneurial culture, venture-backed companies, smart technologists building companies out of garages. That was already in place. So the two Steves are coming into that—they’re products of that world. Steve Jobs had access to a computer lab in his high school, which was very rare at the time.
But they’re also a younger generation—baby boomers. They don’t want anything to do with the military-industrial complex. They want to build a different kind of company. They see computers not as tools of the establishment, but as tools of personal empowerment. And that’s what the company is all about.
Alexis Madrigal:
I mean, how many cities had an electronics industry? Seattle had a bit, right? That’s how Bill Gates gets access to a computer. You had Boston, Cambridge…
Margaret O’Mara:
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Madrigal:
Are there other places? That’s pretty much it, isn’t it?
Margaret O’Mara:
Yeah. But the computer industry, as it was, looked very different. Boston was really the capital of computing. The East Coast is where the big companies were—IBM and others were East Coast and Midwest-based.
But the Valley had already established itself as a hub of small electronics—especially silicon semiconductors—and communications devices. And those two things are the building blocks for the high-tech world we live in now, including Apple’s products.
Alexis Madrigal:
Hansen, let’s come to you. You’re a historian, a curator—you were an Apple employee. How did Apple enter your life?
Hansen Hsu:
My family got our first computer around 1988. I was in fifth grade. We had just moved to Cupertino from the east side of San Jose for the school district—that’s a pretty common Taiwanese immigrant story in Silicon Valley.
My parents were chemists. They weren’t in the computer industry—they worked for biotech companies. My dad was actually kind of afraid of technology, which is why he chose a Macintosh as our first family computer. It was a Mac Plus.
I had used Apple IIs at school before, but the Mac really opened up my love for computers. It was the first computer I learned to control on my own. I learned how to install software, so I became the computer expert at home.
Alexis Madrigal:
I’m familiar with this role, Hansen.
Hansen Hsu:
Yeah. My first programming language was HyperTalk, the scripting language in HyperCard—
Alexis Madrigal:
Oh, wow.
Hansen Hsu:
—which was a program on the Macintosh created by Bill Atkinson, who had written MacPaint before.
Alexis Madrigal:
Very underrated, HyperCard, I will say.
Before we go too far down the road, let’s hear how Apple introduced the Macintosh. Then, Margaret, we’ll come back to you on the importance of this ad.
Apple advertisement (clip):
On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you’ll see why 1984 won’t be like “1984.”
Alexis Madrigal:
That was a Super Bowl ad directed by Ridley Scott, who had just made
Blade Runner
. Margaret, how was this intersecting with what people knew about computers at the time?
Margaret O’Mara:
Oh, it’s so good—that ad. I want everyone to keep listening, but afterward, go watch it again. It positions Apple as the ultimate anti-establishment company. The “Big Brother” figure is really IBM—“Big Blue”—the dominant computer company at the time.
It reinforces Apple’s countercultural identity, which has been part of its story from the beginning. Even though much of its success came from fairly conventional business practices, like those used by IBM.
It’s also a powerful message in the 1980s—an era of individualism and entrepreneurship, where people saw what they bought as an expression of who they were. Apple is saying: if you buy our products, you’re different. You’re pushing back against the establishment.
Alexis Madrigal:
It’s worth reminding listeners that computers were associated with big institutions—government, the military, corporations. They reduced people to numbers.
And here’s Apple saying: we’re not that. We’re about individuals—“bicycles for the mind.”
Margaret O’Mara:
Exactly. Think back to the 1960s—Berkeley, the Free Speech Movement, antiwar protests. People were literally saying, “I am not a punch card.”
Computers were seen as tools of the establishment—mainframes built by IBM, used by the military and big institutions. What Apple did—and what made it stand out—was tell a different story: that the computer is a tool of creativity, individuality, and empowerment.
They took the ideals of the counterculture—transparency, connection, breaking down barriers—and put them on your desk.
Alexis Madrigal:
And somehow, we’re going to talk about this more, Apple has retained some of that identity—even as a $3.5 trillion company with global supply chains and massive scale.
We’re talking about Apple’s impact on the Bay Area—how it’s shaped our culture and our relationship with technology. The company celebrated its 50th anniversary last week.
We’re joined by Margaret O’Mara, professor of American history at the University of Washington and author of
The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America
, and Hansen Hsu, curator at the Computer History Museum.
And we want to hear from you: How has Apple changed the Bay Area? Is there an Apple product that changed your life—for better or worse? Maybe the first one you owned?
Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email
forum@kqed.org
or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram, Discord—at KQED Forum.
I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, April 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, Apple is a $3.5 trillion company with over 150,000 employees worldwide. Fifty years ago, it was two Steves – Jobs and Wozniak – working out of a Los Altos garage. (All great Silicon Valley origin stories seem to include a garage.) Since its inception, Apple has not only introduced culture shifting technology like the Macintosh computer and iPhone, it has also influenced how we live here in the Bay Area, on the edge of the continent and a future being cast by technologists, innovators, and entrepreneurs. We’ll talk about the influence of Apple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"722\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Apple has an incredible Silicon Valley lineage. Going back to the start, both Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were steeped—truly steeped—in the culture of technology companies that came to surround the Stanford campus. Wozniak’s father worked for Lockheed Missiles and Space, a defense contractor that was a huge employer in the proto–Silicon Valley economy. And Jobs, for his part, united the countercultural elements that contributed to the Bay Area’s cache—like the \u003cem data-start=\"528\" data-end=\"549\">Whole Earth Catalog\u003c/em>—with the corporate sensibility of companies like Hewlett-Packard. Jobs was literally a guy who cold-called Bill Hewlett and ended up working on the company’s assembly line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"724\" data-end=\"1158\">Given the emerging homebrew computer and electronics ecosystem springing up in Northern California, the two Steves could not have created Apple many other places in the world. And perhaps more importantly, the two Steves—with their backgrounds, contacts, and worldviews—almost certainly could not have existed anywhere else. These were Bay Area figures creating a Bay Area company, and it has forever changed our region and the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1160\" data-end=\"1444\">Joining us to discuss, we’ve got Margaret O’Mara, a professor of American history at the University of Washington. She writes and teaches about the growth of the high-tech economy. She’s the author of the book \u003cem data-start=\"1370\" data-end=\"1424\">The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>. Welcome, Margaret.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1488\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1466\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1490\" data-end=\"1782\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1490\" data-end=\"1510\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Hansen Hsu, a curator in the Software History Center at the Computer History Museum. Hsu is a historian and sociologist and curated the museum’s exhibit of rare Apple prototypes—and also, I think he would want noted, a former Apple employee. Welcome, Hansen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1811\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1799\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1813\" data-end=\"1977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1813\" data-end=\"1833\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. So, Margaret, what do you think? You’re a historian—do you think Apple could have been founded somewhere else in this world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"2358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"1999\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to imagine. It is a Silicon Valley company through and through. It certainly was not the only personal computer company, but it really has become the emblem of that revolution in the 1980s. And it has continued to be, as the intro outlined, a world-dominant company. So many aspects of our lives—our digitized lives—Apple has had a hand in shaping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2360\" data-end=\"2667\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2360\" data-end=\"2380\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I really took from your book was the way that Apple did unite the different forces circulating in the Bay Area at that time. You know, you’re homebrew, but also Lockheed, but also counterculture. Could you talk a little bit more about those strands?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2669\" data-end=\"2936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2669\" data-end=\"2689\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, it’s really 1976—April 1976. “Silicon Valley” was a term of art, kind of an industry insider term, but it hadn’t appeared in \u003cem data-start=\"2831\" data-end=\"2851\">The New York Times\u003c/em> or \u003cem data-start=\"2855\" data-end=\"2880\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>, and probably not the \u003cem data-start=\"2903\" data-end=\"2928\">San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2938\" data-end=\"3284\">At the time, it was a place that made electronics that went into other electronics. It was an enterprise business—there was no consumer-facing business. And it was a business founded on the Cold War military-industrial complex. Companies like Lockheed were, by and large, defense contractors. So it was a very different kind of culture and place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3286\" data-end=\"3638\">And yet, some critical elements were already there: the entrepreneurial culture, venture-backed companies, smart technologists building companies out of garages. That was already in place. So the two Steves are coming into that—they’re products of that world. Steve Jobs had access to a computer lab in his high school, which was very rare at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3640\" data-end=\"3942\">But they’re also a younger generation—baby boomers. They don’t want anything to do with the military-industrial complex. They want to build a different kind of company. They see computers not as tools of the establishment, but as tools of personal empowerment. And that’s what the company is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3944\" data-end=\"4119\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3944\" data-end=\"3964\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, how many cities had an electronics industry? Seattle had a bit, right? That’s how Bill Gates gets access to a computer. You had Boston, Cambridge…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4121\" data-end=\"4149\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4121\" data-end=\"4141\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4151\" data-end=\"4228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4151\" data-end=\"4171\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Are there other places? That’s pretty much it, isn’t it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4230\" data-end=\"4458\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4230\" data-end=\"4250\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Yeah. But the computer industry, as it was, looked very different. Boston was really the capital of computing. The East Coast is where the big companies were—IBM and others were East Coast and Midwest-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4460\" data-end=\"4710\">But the Valley had already established itself as a hub of small electronics—especially silicon semiconductors—and communications devices. And those two things are the building blocks for the high-tech world we live in now, including Apple’s products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4848\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hansen, let’s come to you. You’re a historian, a curator—you were an Apple employee. How did Apple enter your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4850\" data-end=\"5087\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4850\" data-end=\"4865\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> My family got our first computer around 1988. I was in fifth grade. We had just moved to Cupertino from the east side of San Jose for the school district—that’s a pretty common Taiwanese immigrant story in Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5089\" data-end=\"5320\">My parents were chemists. They weren’t in the computer industry—they worked for biotech companies. My dad was actually kind of afraid of technology, which is why he chose a Macintosh as our first family computer. It was a Mac Plus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5322\" data-end=\"5546\">I had used Apple IIs at school before, but the Mac really opened up my love for computers. It was the first computer I learned to control on my own. I learned how to install software, so I became the computer expert at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5605\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5568\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’m familiar with this role, Hansen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5622\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> Yeah. My first programming language was HyperTalk, the scripting language in HyperCard—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5712\" data-end=\"5741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5712\" data-end=\"5732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5743\" data-end=\"5855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5743\" data-end=\"5758\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> —which was a program on the Macintosh created by Bill Atkinson, who had written MacPaint before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5857\" data-end=\"5917\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5857\" data-end=\"5877\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Very underrated, HyperCard, I will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5919\" data-end=\"6070\">Before we go too far down the road, let’s hear how Apple introduced the Macintosh. Then, Margaret, we’ll come back to you on the importance of this ad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6072\" data-end=\"6207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6072\" data-end=\"6103\">Apple advertisement (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you’ll see why 1984 won’t be like “1984.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6209\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6209\" data-end=\"6229\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was a Super Bowl ad directed by Ridley Scott, who had just made \u003cem data-start=\"6299\" data-end=\"6313\">Blade Runner\u003c/em>. Margaret, how was this intersecting with what people knew about computers at the time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6674\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6423\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so good—that ad. I want everyone to keep listening, but afterward, go watch it again. It positions Apple as the ultimate anti-establishment company. The “Big Brother” figure is really IBM—“Big Blue”—the dominant computer company at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6676\" data-end=\"6882\">It reinforces Apple’s countercultural identity, which has been part of its story from the beginning. Even though much of its success came from fairly conventional business practices, like those used by IBM.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6884\" data-end=\"7147\">It’s also a powerful message in the 1980s—an era of individualism and entrepreneurship, where people saw what they bought as an expression of who they were. Apple is saying: if you buy our products, you’re different. You’re pushing back against the establishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7149\" data-end=\"7325\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7149\" data-end=\"7169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s worth reminding listeners that computers were associated with big institutions—government, the military, corporations. They reduced people to numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7327\" data-end=\"7416\">And here’s Apple saying: we’re not that. We’re about individuals—“bicycles for the mind.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7418\" data-end=\"7580\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7418\" data-end=\"7438\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Think back to the 1960s—Berkeley, the Free Speech Movement, antiwar protests. People were literally saying, “I am not a punch card.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7582\" data-end=\"7844\">Computers were seen as tools of the establishment—mainframes built by IBM, used by the military and big institutions. What Apple did—and what made it stand out—was tell a different story: that the computer is a tool of creativity, individuality, and empowerment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7846\" data-end=\"7964\">They took the ideals of the counterculture—transparency, connection, breaking down barriers—and put them on your desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7966\" data-end=\"8154\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7966\" data-end=\"7986\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And somehow, we’re going to talk about this more, Apple has retained some of that identity—even as a $3.5 trillion company with global supply chains and massive scale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8156\" data-end=\"8327\">We’re talking about Apple’s impact on the Bay Area—how it’s shaped our culture and our relationship with technology. The company celebrated its 50th anniversary last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8329\" data-end=\"8549\">We’re joined by Margaret O’Mara, professor of American history at the University of Washington and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8438\" data-end=\"8492\">The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, and Hansen Hsu, curator at the Computer History Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8551\" data-end=\"8717\">And we want to hear from you: How has Apple changed the Bay Area? Is there an Apple product that changed your life—for better or worse? Maybe the first one you owned?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8719\" data-end=\"8870\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8786\" data-end=\"8800\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram, Discord—at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8872\" data-end=\"8904\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, April 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, Apple is a $3.5 trillion company with over 150,000 employees worldwide. Fifty years ago, it was two Steves – Jobs and Wozniak – working out of a Los Altos garage. (All great Silicon Valley origin stories seem to include a garage.) Since its inception, Apple has not only introduced culture shifting technology like the Macintosh computer and iPhone, it has also influenced how we live here in the Bay Area, on the edge of the continent and a future being cast by technologists, innovators, and entrepreneurs. We’ll talk about the influence of Apple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"722\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Apple has an incredible Silicon Valley lineage. Going back to the start, both Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were steeped—truly steeped—in the culture of technology companies that came to surround the Stanford campus. Wozniak’s father worked for Lockheed Missiles and Space, a defense contractor that was a huge employer in the proto–Silicon Valley economy. And Jobs, for his part, united the countercultural elements that contributed to the Bay Area’s cache—like the \u003cem data-start=\"528\" data-end=\"549\">Whole Earth Catalog\u003c/em>—with the corporate sensibility of companies like Hewlett-Packard. Jobs was literally a guy who cold-called Bill Hewlett and ended up working on the company’s assembly line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"724\" data-end=\"1158\">Given the emerging homebrew computer and electronics ecosystem springing up in Northern California, the two Steves could not have created Apple many other places in the world. And perhaps more importantly, the two Steves—with their backgrounds, contacts, and worldviews—almost certainly could not have existed anywhere else. These were Bay Area figures creating a Bay Area company, and it has forever changed our region and the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1160\" data-end=\"1444\">Joining us to discuss, we’ve got Margaret O’Mara, a professor of American history at the University of Washington. She writes and teaches about the growth of the high-tech economy. She’s the author of the book \u003cem data-start=\"1370\" data-end=\"1424\">The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>. Welcome, Margaret.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1488\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1466\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1490\" data-end=\"1782\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1490\" data-end=\"1510\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Hansen Hsu, a curator in the Software History Center at the Computer History Museum. Hsu is a historian and sociologist and curated the museum’s exhibit of rare Apple prototypes—and also, I think he would want noted, a former Apple employee. Welcome, Hansen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1811\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1799\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1813\" data-end=\"1977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1813\" data-end=\"1833\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. So, Margaret, what do you think? You’re a historian—do you think Apple could have been founded somewhere else in this world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"2358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"1999\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to imagine. It is a Silicon Valley company through and through. It certainly was not the only personal computer company, but it really has become the emblem of that revolution in the 1980s. And it has continued to be, as the intro outlined, a world-dominant company. So many aspects of our lives—our digitized lives—Apple has had a hand in shaping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2360\" data-end=\"2667\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2360\" data-end=\"2380\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I really took from your book was the way that Apple did unite the different forces circulating in the Bay Area at that time. You know, you’re homebrew, but also Lockheed, but also counterculture. Could you talk a little bit more about those strands?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2669\" data-end=\"2936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2669\" data-end=\"2689\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, it’s really 1976—April 1976. “Silicon Valley” was a term of art, kind of an industry insider term, but it hadn’t appeared in \u003cem data-start=\"2831\" data-end=\"2851\">The New York Times\u003c/em> or \u003cem data-start=\"2855\" data-end=\"2880\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>, and probably not the \u003cem data-start=\"2903\" data-end=\"2928\">San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2938\" data-end=\"3284\">At the time, it was a place that made electronics that went into other electronics. It was an enterprise business—there was no consumer-facing business. And it was a business founded on the Cold War military-industrial complex. Companies like Lockheed were, by and large, defense contractors. So it was a very different kind of culture and place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3286\" data-end=\"3638\">And yet, some critical elements were already there: the entrepreneurial culture, venture-backed companies, smart technologists building companies out of garages. That was already in place. So the two Steves are coming into that—they’re products of that world. Steve Jobs had access to a computer lab in his high school, which was very rare at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3640\" data-end=\"3942\">But they’re also a younger generation—baby boomers. They don’t want anything to do with the military-industrial complex. They want to build a different kind of company. They see computers not as tools of the establishment, but as tools of personal empowerment. And that’s what the company is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3944\" data-end=\"4119\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3944\" data-end=\"3964\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, how many cities had an electronics industry? Seattle had a bit, right? That’s how Bill Gates gets access to a computer. You had Boston, Cambridge…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4121\" data-end=\"4149\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4121\" data-end=\"4141\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4151\" data-end=\"4228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4151\" data-end=\"4171\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Are there other places? That’s pretty much it, isn’t it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4230\" data-end=\"4458\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4230\" data-end=\"4250\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Yeah. But the computer industry, as it was, looked very different. Boston was really the capital of computing. The East Coast is where the big companies were—IBM and others were East Coast and Midwest-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4460\" data-end=\"4710\">But the Valley had already established itself as a hub of small electronics—especially silicon semiconductors—and communications devices. And those two things are the building blocks for the high-tech world we live in now, including Apple’s products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4848\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hansen, let’s come to you. You’re a historian, a curator—you were an Apple employee. How did Apple enter your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4850\" data-end=\"5087\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4850\" data-end=\"4865\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> My family got our first computer around 1988. I was in fifth grade. We had just moved to Cupertino from the east side of San Jose for the school district—that’s a pretty common Taiwanese immigrant story in Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5089\" data-end=\"5320\">My parents were chemists. They weren’t in the computer industry—they worked for biotech companies. My dad was actually kind of afraid of technology, which is why he chose a Macintosh as our first family computer. It was a Mac Plus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5322\" data-end=\"5546\">I had used Apple IIs at school before, but the Mac really opened up my love for computers. It was the first computer I learned to control on my own. I learned how to install software, so I became the computer expert at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5605\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5568\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’m familiar with this role, Hansen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5622\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> Yeah. My first programming language was HyperTalk, the scripting language in HyperCard—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5712\" data-end=\"5741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5712\" data-end=\"5732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh, wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5743\" data-end=\"5855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5743\" data-end=\"5758\">Hansen Hsu:\u003c/strong> —which was a program on the Macintosh created by Bill Atkinson, who had written MacPaint before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5857\" data-end=\"5917\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5857\" data-end=\"5877\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Very underrated, HyperCard, I will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5919\" data-end=\"6070\">Before we go too far down the road, let’s hear how Apple introduced the Macintosh. Then, Margaret, we’ll come back to you on the importance of this ad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6072\" data-end=\"6207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6072\" data-end=\"6103\">Apple advertisement (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you’ll see why 1984 won’t be like “1984.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6209\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6209\" data-end=\"6229\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was a Super Bowl ad directed by Ridley Scott, who had just made \u003cem data-start=\"6299\" data-end=\"6313\">Blade Runner\u003c/em>. Margaret, how was this intersecting with what people knew about computers at the time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6674\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6423\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so good—that ad. I want everyone to keep listening, but afterward, go watch it again. It positions Apple as the ultimate anti-establishment company. The “Big Brother” figure is really IBM—“Big Blue”—the dominant computer company at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6676\" data-end=\"6882\">It reinforces Apple’s countercultural identity, which has been part of its story from the beginning. Even though much of its success came from fairly conventional business practices, like those used by IBM.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6884\" data-end=\"7147\">It’s also a powerful message in the 1980s—an era of individualism and entrepreneurship, where people saw what they bought as an expression of who they were. Apple is saying: if you buy our products, you’re different. You’re pushing back against the establishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7149\" data-end=\"7325\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7149\" data-end=\"7169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s worth reminding listeners that computers were associated with big institutions—government, the military, corporations. They reduced people to numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7327\" data-end=\"7416\">And here’s Apple saying: we’re not that. We’re about individuals—“bicycles for the mind.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7418\" data-end=\"7580\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7418\" data-end=\"7438\">Margaret O’Mara:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Think back to the 1960s—Berkeley, the Free Speech Movement, antiwar protests. People were literally saying, “I am not a punch card.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7582\" data-end=\"7844\">Computers were seen as tools of the establishment—mainframes built by IBM, used by the military and big institutions. What Apple did—and what made it stand out—was tell a different story: that the computer is a tool of creativity, individuality, and empowerment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7846\" data-end=\"7964\">They took the ideals of the counterculture—transparency, connection, breaking down barriers—and put them on your desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7966\" data-end=\"8154\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7966\" data-end=\"7986\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And somehow, we’re going to talk about this more, Apple has retained some of that identity—even as a $3.5 trillion company with global supply chains and massive scale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8156\" data-end=\"8327\">We’re talking about Apple’s impact on the Bay Area—how it’s shaped our culture and our relationship with technology. The company celebrated its 50th anniversary last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8329\" data-end=\"8549\">We’re joined by Margaret O’Mara, professor of American history at the University of Washington and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8438\" data-end=\"8492\">The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, and Hansen Hsu, curator at the Computer History Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8551\" data-end=\"8717\">And we want to hear from you: How has Apple changed the Bay Area? Is there an Apple product that changed your life—for better or worse? Maybe the first one you owned?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8719\" data-end=\"8870\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8786\" data-end=\"8800\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram, Discord—at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8872\" data-end=\"8904\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"radiolab": {
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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